MyDD :: We Need a Truce [Updated]

We Need a Truce [Updated]

by Reaper0Bot0, Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:41:54 PM EST

Good afternoon.

Not everybody who has grievances is a troll. Those of us who are pleased with who won our nomination have been a bit trigger happy with the terms "troll" and "concern troll" and so forth. We have to be able to accept honest dissent and some of that honest dissent will come from people with whom we strongly disagreed during the primary season. Some of those people still have the same concerns as they had before, but are either on board with us, or are working their way towards it. Every time one of them writes something critical of our nominee they get pounded.

Stop that!

On the other hand, if those of you who previously supported Senator Clinton wish to be taken seriously in your complaints, I would urge you to stop replaying the primary season. It's over. It's done. Your candidate lost, and no amount of sniping will change that.

And yes, we have real trolls too. So how do we achieve civility hereabouts? Why not read on...?

I suggest a truce. I'm not trying to muzzle anyone. Everybody is free to say whatever they like, as far as I'm concerned. Go nuts. However, if this place is to serve any meaningful purpose, if it is to be at all useful, then everybody needs to dial it back a notch.

Obama supporters (which is every day closer to being completely synonymous with "Democrats"): stop dogpiling. Not everybody who has a diary about some things Obama has said or done they disliked is trolling or necessarily stuck in the past. Some of these people are those things, yes, but many of them are not. We have to be careful not to offend honest posters. Stop hammering at them or mocking them for what you perceive as a deluded attempt at holding out hope for Senator Clinton. Most of her supporters are coming along just fine, and we only harm that healing process here by hammering away at them.

Aggrieved Clinton supporters: please feel free to write about your grievances. I've seen some good diaries on these topics, and I'd frankly like to see more. If you think, as one of you wrote, that Senator Obama is walking away from the positions held by the ACLU and this bothers you, by all means tell us so and why. That's useful. Educate us on the policy concerns. You may persuade some of us, and we may help you in turn try to lobby the candidates on your issues.

This is your party, too. You are welcome here. Dissent is absolutely acceptable and moreover necessary. Obama isn't a dictator, and we aren't a victorious army. We need you. We want you. Part of having you under the tent is accepting criticisms from you. I expect that, and I hope for more of it.

But it has to be constructive. If your obvious point is to try to tell us we were idiots for supporting Obama then you're just going to inspire the kind of idiocy I've already mentioned. These foolish "See, he's no better than Hillary, can we have her back?" posts are just plain awful. He's doing what you wanted from the eventual nominee and you should be pleased. Some of you are and have said so. I appreciate that.

But as for the others? The ever-shrinking group that cannot accept that what's done is done? You serve no purpose here. You are not contributing honest dissent. You are opposition. you are trying to hurt our efforts and that I cannot abide. If you've already taken your ball home there's no point in taunting us about it.

So, to recap: zealous Obama supporters need to lay off the Clinton folks who have real and valid policy complaints. They're as much a part of this place as you are, and if you keep it up we lose them and become an echo chamber. Clinton supporters: dissent is great, and I hope you help drive the debate here. Just please, please stay constructive. I'll happily TR anybody who hits you folks for stupid reasons, but I do not want to see taunting diaries or gloating due to perceived validation of whatever it is that you had to say three months ago. It's over. We're here to win.

Let's do this right. Let's learn from one another. Let's stop being children and for God's sake lets stop driving off members. In the effort to be rid of trolls and so forth we've overdone it.

Thank you all and be well.

[Update]

Okay, seriously, I don't understand some of you. Half of this diary is me telling Clinton supporters that we need and want you, so long as you're constructive, and that we need and want your criticisms, mixed in with me telling Obama supporters to lay off so long as you're being reasonable. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT, DAMMIT?

Tags: Us, Them, Us again (all tags)

Permalink :: 128 Comments :: Post a Comment

Tips? (1.91 / 12)

For doing it right?

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:43:06 PM EST

Re: Tips? (none / 0)

Terminus, why the TR?

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I didn't TR you myself (none / 0)

but this really is a bullshit diary.

by Dumbo on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:42:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I didn't TR you myself (none / 0)

Whatever.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (none / 0)

and yet you still heap demands on HRC supporters to get in your good graces. And of course you hardly mention your own and your ilk's bad behavior. Funny that...

by trytobereal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:35:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (none / 0)

You apparently can't or won't read the diary as I wrote it.

I'm not sure what the one you're imagining actually says, but it sounds pretty rough. What part of "we need and want you here" don't you get? I solicited criticisms of Barack Obama, and asked my fellow zealous Obama supporters to lay off you guys so long as you're being reasonable.

Shit. You want a cookie, too? I thought being reasonable, respectful, and giving you space was enough.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One of these days (none / 0)

I have to ask whether people who refuse to acknowledge that cited sources with more research in the field than the poster has, are probably more correct than the poster, should have something done to them.

Possible adding a twizzle at the bottom of every response to them, so that everyone knows they're just a twink.

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:45:24 PM EST

Re: One of these days (none / 0)

Um-kay.....

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

people seem in a pissing contest (none / 0)

more about the big dog, than obama.

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 1)

This is silly...

On the other hand, if those of you who previously supported Senator Clinton wish to be taken seriously in your complaints, I would urge you to stop replaying the primary season. It's over. It's done. Your candidate lost, and no amount of sniping will change that.

Of course we know who won and who lost (duh!), and of course we know nothing will change that (double duh!!). We like to discuss what happened during the primaries just like we like to discuss what happened during the civil war, and during Genghis Khan's conquest of the world, etc...

And no, when we discuss that, it is not exactly a "complaint"...

I would urge you to drop that condescending tone...

If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi

by SevenStrings on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:49:20 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 7)

I won't drop it. I'm sorry, but I will not. I've seen more than a few posters positively ham it up like there was still some kind of race going on.

MyDD is not a place for therapy, nor is it a place to score self-esteem points for trying to win a flame war when you lost the primary.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 3)

To clarify, you may have misunderstood what I meant. I meant that we shouldn't act like this is something we can redo, or that it was some collossal mistake we have to pick apart.

Discussion is fine, in a historical context. It's just not a living thing.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:53:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

The problem with being perceived as "condescending" is that you lose credibility even before the reader can reflect on your thoughts. Your tone was condescending. For me, as soon as I got to that cited paragraph, well.... The problem is difficult, surely. Yet, when you ask another to engage in dialogue and to feel free to state their position, you really don't get to be offended, alarmed, or upset when a reader takes up the offer and writes what that reader thinks (and feels.) There is an old saying in law: Never ask a question that you don't know the answer to...or that you might not want to hear the answer to. Seriously...grievances by their nature are emotive and, stating them, and freely talking about them may lead to some progress. It may or may not. The key: Don't insult the reader who speaks directly, honestly (and without vulgar or obscene language) in response to your invitation. That is destined to go nowhere fast.

by christinep on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

So, despite your claims for a truce, you have no plans to drop the condescending attitutde?
What was the point of this diary again?

by skohayes on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Maybe if you read past the sentence you misinterpreted you'd understand. I'd write a lengthy diary to explain my views to you, but I've fortuitously already done so.

See above.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 3)

Many people haven't realized that it's over. That's the agenda of PUMA.

And it seems we haven't acquired the necessary remove from the primary season in order to fairly critique it as of yet. Many people are still too emotional to have truly honest discussions about it. We're still in the process of moving away from our primary season roles, and reminding ourselves that our similarities outweigh our differences.

Personally, I can appreciate so many more people on this site since the primaries have ended. I certainly don't want to resurrect them.

by Tenafly Viper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

agreed! (none / 0)

I try to preface some of what i have to say with "i was an obama supporter, so my perspective may be off" particularly when I'm disagreeing with someoen about how hillary might have won if she could have made the sexism charge stick (not against obama, but in general)

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 1)

Its not going to work! You Obama supporters can't help yourselves piling on us and calling us trolls. What do you expect from bullies who won't count Florida and Michigan even though its obvious that Hillary Clinton would have won the nomination if they counted and if Arkansas and West Virginia counted twice as they should have since appalachian peoples are discriminated against and called racist.

But I agree lets get rid of all the trolls that are 99% of this blog, then once there gone me, AliveandKicking, Engels, Rankles can have a nice civil discussion about how Obama is really the leader of a misogynist wing of the black panther party.

by OMG LOLZZ on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:49:26 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

By the way I just want to say that I'm gonna vote for Barry O for president!! LOLOL

by OMG LOLZZ on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

OMG LOLZZ! Aren't you just the cutest little thing. Come here let me give you a big hug and kisses...will you be my pet troll, please?

"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Thats condescending you must be Obama supporter. You gonna tell me to I cling to my guns and Bible too? I'm not a good pet trolls bite sometimes LOLOLOLOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by OMG LOLZZ on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Better Grade of Trolls (none / 0)

"But I agree lets get rid of all the trolls that are 99% of this blog, then once there gone me, AliveandKicking, Engels, Rankles can have a nice civil discussion about how Obama is really the leader of a misogynist wing of the black panther party."

Errr... this is a Democratic blog.
No Nickles/Confluence is that way ...

by Mae Scott on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that all of us (2.00 / 2)

Clinton and Obama (and other) supporters alike should be guided by 2 simple principles:

1. Acceptance that the nomination has been decided in a fair and vigorous process, and that the nominee of the party will receive our vote in November.

2. Acknowledgement that no candidate will make decisions/behave in a way that we support 100% of the time. When our nominee deviates from our desired positions, we can and rightly should criticize and debate those deviations. However, we should not forget that Senator Obama is the nominee, and that he should retain our support overall despite disagreements that we might have on specific points.

by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:52:02 PM EST

Re: I think that all of us (none / 0)

I strongly disagree with #1. As for #2, Obama is supposed to be some sort of progressive superhero, since he deafeated "DLC, conservative" Clinton, so its funny to see him taking Max Baucus type positions on issues.

by bsavage on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok - you have a right to feel this way (2.00 / 3)

But consider these points

- What was "unfair" about our nomination process? All of the states and territories participated. Both candidates were on the ballot in all states with the exception of MI (and that worked to Hillary Clinton's advantage). There were over 20 debates held and millions of dollars spent on campaigning and ads.

- Presuming that the process was indeed unfair, what is your proposed path to remedying the injustice? Would that path create "collateral damage" to our party? Would it be worth it to pursue?

- If we criticize Barack Obama's positions on the issues, then we of course should criticize those of John McCain as well. I suspect that if you are a democrat of any stripe, or even a mainstream independnet, that you would find your list of disappointments with Senator Obama (or with Max Baucus or Hillary Clinton for that matter) to be FAR shorter than that of your disappointments with Senator McCain

- What is your proposed course of action that will productively serve our political agenda?

by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok - you have a right to feel this way (2.00 / 3)

After 8 long years of a failed presidency, I want a nominee who can go all the way and fight for Democrats. If you think about the economic, foreign policy, and socil policy blunders that have occured, I don't think that's too much ask for. I know Obama is the nominee, I just want to see him stand and truly fight for us. If he doesn't do that, then we nominated the wrong person.

by bsavage on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I want the same thing (none / 0)

That's why I was first for Kucinich, then for Clinton. They were the real fighters in the bunch. Only time will tell whether Obama can be such a fighter too. I will be disappointed if he isn't strong. But regardless, there is no doubt that he is our nominee. And there is no doubt that he is a much much much better candidate than the individual on the Republican side. For these reasons, I am going to support him. Where he takes positions that make me unhappy, I will speak up. But I won't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I won't throw Obama under the bus.

by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I want the same thing (2.00 / 1)

His support of FISA, his refusal to count the votes in FL and MI and his dubious connections are all reasons I can't vote for him. I'm sorry, pile on if you must.

I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?

by William Cooper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I want the same thing (none / 0)

No pile on, just a question: Do you plan to sit out?

Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I want the same thing (2.00 / 1)

No I will find a progressive candidate to vote for, even if I have to write him or her in.

I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?

by William Cooper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ok - you have a right to feel this way (2.00 / 1)

OMG: "Both candidates were on the ballot in all states with the exception of MI (and that worked to Hillary Clinton's advantage)."
Despite that this statement is factually incorrect, what about FL?

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:23:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Help me out -- what is untrue about this statement (none / 0)

Both candidates were on the ballot in Florida. Obama actually ran ads there (as part of a national cable ad by). Neither campaigned there. In MI, Clinton was on the ballot, Obama was not. That clearly helped her, didn't it?

What's your concern about how FL was handled? Both candidates agreed not to campaign there with an understanding that the delegates wouldn't matter in the nominating process. The DNC reached a compromise to avoid pissing of FL voters. No matter how FL was decided, it would not have provided enough delegates to give Clinton the nomination.

Sorry, help me out with this.

by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (2.00 / 1)

Amazing: "In MI, Clinton was on the ballot, Obama was not. That clearly helped her, didn't it?"
If we selected the nominee by votes, yes, it would have. But we select the nominee by delegate. How do you justify your statement? How do you justify the action of the DNC to award Obama MI delegates? What benefit to Clinton are you referring to?

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (2.00 / 1)

I don't need to. It was within the purview of the DNC to decide how to do it. Clinton's margin of victory was undoubtedly higher over Obama because she was on the ballot and he was not.

Anyway, let's say the DNC gave Clinton 100% of the delegates from MI. The result of the nominating process would have been unchanged.

So what is your point other than to argue for argument's sake?

I was a strong, strong Clinton backer, but it is really silly to argue that the nomination was taken from her unfairly.

by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (2.00 / 2)

OK. Since you're a strong Clinton backer, I'll tread lightly, as a strong Clinton backer, myself.
If the FL and MI delegate count were in full, and represented the actual vote, then the only way Obama is the nominee is if the Supers overturned the will of the people; i.e. she won the majority of the pledged delegates. if all votes were counted equally. Now there are some (PUMAs and others) who state this is exactly the issue for their refusal to support Obama.
You don't need anymore commentary from me to understand the seriousness of the issue.

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (2.00 / 1)

Mojo'd. I agree one hundred percent.

I'm for a timeline on Iraq, public funding of elections, women's reproductive rights, gun restrictions and universal suffrage. So why should I vote for Obama?

by William Cooper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:14:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (2.00 / 1)

There is no count in which she wins the most pledge delegates. You just blatantly made that up.

"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"

by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (none / 0)

Please supply some math to this, because you are being completely dishonest in my opinion, not its not my opinion, it is 100% fact that you are making that up. No matter what happened with FL and MI, which she she agreed to when she was "going to win easily" but that is a completely different issue.

Under no circumstances was she ever going to be able to get the pledge delegate lead. You are entitled to the facts, you are not entitled to your own version of them.

"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"

by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (2.00 / 1)

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_delegate_count .html

The math, in color.

She won the pledged delegate count!

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:20:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (2.00 / 1)

Current pledge delegates

1766.5 1639.5 difference of 126

add 52.5 to Hillary and 33.5 to Obama for Florida

1800 1692

add 38.5 to Hillary and take away 29.5 from Obama, making it 100% instead of 50, and adding the 4 taken from Hillary

1770.5 1730.5

I just did the math, it may be off by a bit, but as you can see, unless I made a mistake somewhere, she still doesn't have the lead, closer, but she still loses.

"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"

by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (none / 0)

By what metric did she win, or were you just making things up?

"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"

by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:32:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

JUST AS I THOUGHT (2.00 / 1)

Nothing but Hillary dead ender propaganda, you people make me sick.

"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"

by Brandon on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (none / 0)

It's astonishing.

We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.

by Jess81 on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 06:16:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Help me out -- what is untrue about this (none / 0)

Oh, please chi! You're a repug troll. Everyone konw that.

"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband

by venician on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dude - the state delegations were annulled (none / 0)

by the DNC, which had the right to do so. There is no valid case here. Would love for Clinton to have pulled it out. WOuld have worked a lot harder for her than I will for Obama. But he won it fair and square.

by activatedbybush on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that all of us (none / 0)

However frequently you feign amusement. I get the impression you aren't really having a good time. You seem a bit apathetic about your Disruption and misplaced aggression of late.

by Tenafly Viper on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think that all of us (none / 0)

I've posted a few comments on mydd but never rehashed the "process" that resulted in Obama's position as the presumptive nominee. However, since you brought it up, I will never accept the concept that "the nomination has been decided in a fair and vigorous process".

Depsite my total lack of respect for Obama, I was going to vote for him in the GE given the alternative. However, I will never, under any circumstance, vote for a candidate who would gut the 4th amendment. As much as I admire and respect Hillary, had she won the nomination and then caved on FISA, I wouldn't have voted for her either.

by jrole on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 1)

Interesting diary. BTW, have you seen my other site, 777craprepublicanblog, that is so often referred to whenever I post?

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:53:04 PM EST

It's not that you're a Republican... (none / 0)

my favorite diarist on DKos is a Republican!

It's that you don't provide anything of substance, or intellectual merit.

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not that you're a Republican... (2.00 / 1)

Wow. You make my head swell with pride. Expect nothing less from the likes of YOU.

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not that you're a Republican... (none / 0)

Who is this republican?

I would like to read them.

Although I doubt I will like it, if it is at least cognicent we should invite him to write here.

Im tired of all the wannabe poser republicans on here, I would rather argue with the real thing then someone who woke up on June 4th and called themselves republican and framed a the photop of McCain, Lieberman, and Grahm in Iraq

by DemsLandslide2008 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

David Brin (none / 0)

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/

His posts are always insightful, often daring -- and he isn't a complete asshole like Pournelle.

You should read his post on why you should register Republican (that's only on his website, not Kos, he's wise enough to not post troll-bait) -- it's interesting.

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

also note that after I got done (none / 0)

kvetching at ChitownDenny, he actually put together a coherent comment on one of my diaries, for which I cheerfully gave him mojo!

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:36:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: also note that after I got done (2.00 / 3)

My bad! ;)

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Seriously, good hard comments (none / 0)

will always get mojo from me.

The kind that are "why are you doing this" or just one liners that don't make a case for anything... that i don't want to see, as it doesn't contribute to the overall discussion.

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seriously, good hard comments (2.00 / 1)

Dude, or dudess, tons of hate at me because of my Hillary support; but you're the first person to state that I post irrelevantly. Don't take it seriously, I don't.

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:53:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I looked at your post (none / 0)

which asked "is there a point to this diary" (on my diary), and it seemed flippant. It did not seem like you actually wanted an answer to the comment, and thus seemed rather irrelevant.

Also, some people post to vent, it's okay!

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I looked at your post (2.00 / 1)

Ahhh. I didn't see a point, except to be negative towards Bill, and wanted to clarify before I jumped to an assumption.
Did you answer me? I'll go back and check.

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I looked at your post (2.00 / 1)

Read your reply. Peace.

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

just out of curiosity (2.00 / 1)

since we're sitting here kibbitzing...

why do you have a pro-McCain blog? Is it the same reason as the McCain girls who made those videos? [err, please don't answer in the affirmative to that last one. that would be tmi]

His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?

by RisingTide on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:11:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: just out of curiosity (2.00 / 1)

You Beotch!
LOL!
You know that is a smear to shut me the f0ck up!
And I hope you know I won't shut the f0ck up! :)

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Alas we can't even agree about how to disagree :)

For me the folks that have fact based, clear policy and positions disagreements I love reading their stuff. I may not always agree, but I want to read it.

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.

by jsfox on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:59:30 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 1)

well, one of the problems is that some Obama supporters from the primary will state well, would Hillary have done any differently to those primary supporters of HRC.

If we cannot refer back to the primary & state, hey, we KNEW this and that about her, and Obama did this & that....well, there ya have it.

We should be able to bring up their positions from the primary season and why it is an issue now - for some of us, that could have been an issue for us HRC supporters if she took the same position, but we still thought she was more qualified as a candidate.

by colebiancardi on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:24:20 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (1.50 / 2)

So they why don't you do that on allergys hillarybloggers site? Why do it here? Your only intention is stir up shit. Your pissed that you lost and now want to to try and shit all over Obama here.

"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband

by venician on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 1)

excuse me? Where did I stir up shit? please, point that out. I haven't "shit" over Obama.

instead I think you are the one that is stirring up shit here.

If we cannot point out our concerns, maybe you need to go and do that another site.

stirring up shit indeed. Are you a republican, by any chance? Cause your comment sounds like a lock-step 'pug.

by colebiancardi on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Oh and I TR'd you, because you made a statement about me (stirring up shit and shitting over Obama) that was false.

You didn't EVEN bother to read my comments or my diaries. You just fucking ASSUMED the worse.

by colebiancardi on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

AGREED! (2.00 / 2)

Sometimes, something really ticks you off, but otherwise, save your snark for the other team (and we are all on the same team).

John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!

by kosnomore on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:26:30 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

GROUP HUG!

by xdem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:48:35 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 1)

We will never have a full truce. There will always be trolls attempting to disrupt conversation on this site. On all sites, for that matter. There will be trolls coming on here to bait Obama supporters and others who denigrate and insult Clinton supporters while posing as Obama supporters. It's really difficult to have a truce with all of that going on.

It isn't all bad, though. I see some signs of people moderating their stance and comments. There have been comments, coming from all sides, that are so over the top that the more rational posters are stepping back and saying, "Whoa, I don't want to be associated with that idiot". This leads those more rational posters to add some disclaimers and to pull back from some of the more obviously antagonistic comments.

As things mellow a bit among the majority of posters, the ones trying to stir up trouble become more and more obvious. When the anti- crowd doesn't get the response they hoped for they are forced to become more and more extreme, thus isolating themselves even more.

A classic example of what I am talking about is shown by our most prolific troll. His latest diary is a sad attempt at a parody of one of my diaries. It fails miserably. In fact, it fails so miserably that hardly anyone finds it necessary to argue with him. He's been reduced to calling people names and insulting them. His effectiveness on this site is pretty much finished. If he continues to post he will be met with more and more ridicule until he becomes nothing more than a parody of his old self.

Give it time. Things will work out.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:02:04 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

The assembled khans quarrel at yet another jirga of the tribes of Left Blogistan. Pardon me while I go fire my Kalashnikov at the sky...

by Shaun Appleby on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Evidence based politics (2.00 / 1)

I'm a fan of it.

What we need is a reversal of sexist attitudes in my party.

by Betsy McCall on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:22:24 PM EST

Re: Evidence based politics (none / 0)

We need a reversal of all biases, period.

by Mae Scott on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:41:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (2.00 / 1)

If there hadn't been a primary, there would be no disagreements on the candidates. It is really impossible to decide to not discuss one topic or another as though none of them are connectied. This election is a continuum, not a collection of seperate pieces. So are the thoughts and feelings of people about them. I don't believe the truce will work, because the same Obama supporters who call everyone else a troll are not able to distinguish when a person is dissenting and discussing, and when they are bashing Obama. They think that it is all the same thing, and have trouble dealing with anything other than total praise for Obama.

by Scotch on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:37:54 PM EST

Civil Rigths Acts passed. Get over it! (2.00 / 1)

Stop bringing up racism already! LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act over 40 years ago! Deadenders you're just holding us all back from progress by bringing up racism, racism, etc. Get over it deadenders!

by catfish2 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:38:23 PM EST

Re: Civil Rigths Acts passed. Get over it! (none / 0)

Hey, um, buddy?

This was a constructive and conciliatory gesture. Why do you need to troll it?

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Civil Rigths Acts passed. Get over it! (none / 0)

Catfish,

Use more exclamation points!!!

Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08

by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Come on Catfish... (none / 0)

I do not know anything about your gender or race or ethnicity. I thought I had an interesting conversation with you on a diary I wrote yesterday, but maybe that was someone else. Whoever I talked to yesterday seemed fairly reasonable, so I am going to give this a try.

I am white. I am also a lesbian. Now being white gets me treated in a way that is unknown to people of color. How do I know this? Because I get little glimpses of it, mostly because my partner is Latina, Native American and White. Also most of my friends in my life have had a different background than me, and a lot of them are different because they are another race. Oh, and I work almost primarily with Native Americans now.

I also have this kind of odd voice, so anyone who talks to me on the phone thinks I am a man. Often I let them think that because they treat me better. Although it is sometimes better if they think I am a woman. Most people are sexist, even me.

Now why am I giving you way too much personal information? Because...I guess I want to tell you that, I do not have a clue what racism feels like. No one has ever treated me different because of the color of my skin. No wait, that's not really true, thinking again; I do think that some people of color do treat me different because of my skin color, but many do not. My partner does not. She sees me as being like her. Many of the people I work with do not. They either think that I am Indian or like me anyway.

Now you might laugh at that last or think that is reverse racism. I suppose technically we could call it that, but I just see it as a learned response to people who have more power and money and rights than they have. Oh and there is an issue of trust. I will save that for another post. I guess my point here is that most people are racist, even me.

Anyway, I digress. I guess what I am trying to say is that even though I have not really been a victim of racism, I have seen it's impact on people I care about. For one thing, when we go out, Ani is always looked at around here. We go everywhere, on the Reservation and into white towns and Native towns and I see how she is treated. When we go into a store, we are often followed around, and her license is alway required, while mine is almost never asked for.

I have seen how Native clients are treated by child protection and the courts and law enforcement. In the area I live, it is truly despicable. I remember when I lived in Hayward WI, Amnesty International was called in to investigate our local jail for the way Indians were treated. My partner was a Nurse Practitionor and was unable to get her patients their proper meds. So please do not speak to me about the Civil Rights Act of over 40 year ago. Until you are totally judged, often in a negative way, and in an instant, based upon the very color of your skin, YOU KNOW NOTHING about racism.

That being said, I feel the same is true for sexism. It would be extremely difficult for any man to understand, because he cannot personally experience a different gender. I actually think it is hard for some women to see sexism. We still have a long way to go in this country.

Having gone off on you, I would like to concede to you one point. Actually I might concede more than that, but that is for another post. The point that I concede, is that people are far to quick to cry out their shrieks of racism, just as there are people who flash rage about sexism. (Now do not get me started on sexism because I can actually speak to that issue. Oh and homophobia and classism and...)

I am just so sick of people bashing each other over the head with these issues. That means you and you and you and me. We really must stop doing this.

So I do think racism and sexism and homophobia and any other xenophobic attitudes must be discussed. Can we just please try to do this like rational adults. Just pretend that the person you are speaking to, is sitting in front of you. Would you treat any person in your presence in these horrid ways? I really hope not.

"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:30:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Thank you Reaper0bot0,

As usual a voice of sanity sounding out in the cacophony around here. Will it get through? I am almost afraid to read the comments. Ah well, here goes...

"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"

by Hollede on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:41:31 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Thank you.

by johnnygunn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:03:30 PM EST

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Thanks.

John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way

by bosdcla14 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 05:46:30 PM EST

Reaper0bot0 here is some thing from the bottom of (none / 0)

my heart. I have been a Democrat all my life. I have voted for Democratic presidential nominee starting from Mondale to Kerry. I supported Hillary but would vote for Obama. Why can't I criticize Sen. Obama. Why should I be troll rated when I express my opinon. I called him a hyprocrite because he is taking the same positions as Hillary after the primary. He accused Hillary of being Bush lite.

You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat

by indydem99 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:14:04 PM EST

Re: Reaper0bot0 here is some (none / 0)

"Why can't I criticize Sen. Obama. Why should I be troll rated when I express my opinon."

If you had actually read what I wrote you'd see that I said I encourage dissent, that I encourage criticism.

Did you read the damned diary?

I am reaching out to you in this piece and you miss it completely?

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reaper0bot0 here is some (none / 0)

I just told Obama supporters to lay off you guys if what you write is reasonable.

Please, re-read what I wrote.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was not complaining about you. (none / 0)

I was taking about those that were troll rating me.

You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat

by indydem99 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was not complaining about you. (none / 0)

I will uprate you if I see it, and you were being reasonable.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:37:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Need a Truce (Please Read) (none / 0)

Process complaints are just as valid as policy complaints. Comments on process are just as valid as comments on policy.

I'm voting for Obama. I'm urging other Clinton supporters to vote for Obama. I'm working on some friends who are (shockingly, to me) undecided to vote for Obama.

In doing so, I do not become a blank-minded droid that is uncritical of, in particular, the promise of New! Improved! Politics that was so central as a raison d'etre to so many Obama supporters.

Some may have voted for Obama expecting Old Politics maneuvers and tilts to the center and even Right. Congratulations to those who were so prescient; most Obama supporters were not so, ah, realistic in their assessment.

by InigoMontoya on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:00:06 PM EST

Another troll rating set up (2.00 / 1)

A diary that attracts the type of Obama supporters that still use words like "Clinton Dead-enders" and in which Obama supporters troll rate dead their chosen target. Absolutely impotent diary meant solely to attract those who want to vent about something. I no longer have time in my life for silliness such as this. Why don't you use another outlet to vent? To use just one of your incredibly self-possessed statements in one of the most arrogant diaries posted yet:

You serve no purpose here.

I trust that doesn't exactly correlate with your opinion of the importance of your accomplishing your mission, but we can have different opinions and do. The fact that a substanceless diary such as this gets to the top of the rec list says everything I need to know. Your diary reminds me of the hilarious South Park episode of Sparky the Gay Dog. "Don't be gay, Sparky. Don't be gay". It just doesn't work like that.

Change Before It's Too Late

by Jeter on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:23:37 PM EST

Re: Another troll rating set up (none / 0)

Are you simply unable to read?

I ask Obama supporters to lay off you folks if you're being constructive?

What more do you want?

by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What more do you want? (none / 0)

You know what they want.....

by xdem on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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